What was amazing about Norikatsu was that he didn’t let the others catch up.

NakamuraKazama came to Kawasaki Frontale from Tsukuba University as a manager in the 2012 season. This was his first time as a manager in the J.League at the age of 50.

KazamaYes. At the time, in addition to being an associate professor (at my alma mater, the University of Tsukuba) and the head coach of the football club, I also worked as a commentator and had other jobs, so people from all walks of life helped me get to Kawasaki.

NakamuraThis also started in April, in the middle of the season, due to a change in manager (due to poor results).

KazamaThat’s a bit reckless (laughs).

NakamuraIn the end, I am accepting the offer.

KazamaThe president at the time, Shinpei Takeda, and the head of the strengthening department, Haruo Shoji, didn’t simply ask me to be the manager, but instead said, “We want the club to be an offensive team from the top to the development team. We want you to build the foundation for that.” So I thought that would be interesting.

NakamuraI myself was participating in the activities of the Japanese national team (when Kazama was appointed). I returned to the team from there, and while I was confident in my technique and basics, when I first met Kazama, he told me that the ball was not stopping when I trapped it. I thought it was stopping, but Kazama’s perception was different.

KazamaI only said it once because I thought Norikazu could do it. Basically, I said, “I don’t have a place to stop the ball.” As expected, Norikazu found that place right away.

NakamuraTo put it simply, if you can stop the ball properly at your own place, you can also stop the opponent (who is defending). If you continue to do this consciously, not unconsciously, the opponent will not be able to jump in, which will lead to you being able to attack while making the most of your teammates. Handling the ball properly is a universal truth, and it was a huge thing for me to realize this after turning 30.

KazamaIt’s not that the ball is not taken, but rather that the opponents stop coming. If the opponents don’t come, in other words, if you can play forward, then Norigo itself becomes a tactic. If you create a “clock” based on Norigo, then everyone just has to adjust to Norigo. After all, there were players around who could move like (forward) Kobayashi Yu. As we started making demands of each other, (the overall speed of decision-making) got faster and faster. However, what was amazing about Norigo was that he didn’t let (his teammates) catch up.

NakamuraI’m honored (laughs). I think the reason I wasn’t caught up is because I wanted to enjoy playing soccer at the top. I felt like I was leading the way, and the others were following me. That made it even more fun. Because we were all on the same level.

KazamaOne time, Kengo came back from the Japanese national team and said, “The Japanese national team players are strong. Are we okay with this?” He felt that what he was doing at Frontale was “interesting,” but then he felt the difference in quality between the national team players and himself and said, “We’re still not good enough.” I thought that was great. So I remember replying, “You’re right.”

NakamuraI think I grew the most when I was around 32-34 years old, playing for Frontale with Kazama-san. It was a very refreshing experience, as I felt like all my common sense was being turned upside down. I didn’t feel any resistance when I was pointed out, I just thought it was interesting. I also valued the ball. And it was all about attacking, attacking, attacking, so it suited me. I didn’t want to let go of this football, and simply put, I enjoyed it more than anything.

Because the manager is the one being asked to do things, he needs to make sure the players enjoy it.

KazamaA manager can’t play on the pitch. He has to rely on the players. So the players have to enjoy it.

NakamuraFor me, as a coach, the basis is whether the players are enjoying themselves. The point is to teach them about the invisible world. So, just like when you are told that the ball is not stopping, I think about changing the player’s perception. I don’t really say too much, but rather convey the key points concisely and draw them out. So it’s not forced at all.

KazamaIf the players are having fun, the coaches will also enjoy it. There is no need for selfish desires. I don’t think it’s good to teach with the desire to make the players achieve success. If that happens, it’s no fun for us either.

NakamuraDoes your idea of ​​”having fun” really stem from your childhood?

KazamaThat’s right. I started playing soccer when I was in the fifth grade. Even when I was going through a tough time, I could forget about it by kicking the ball alone at the shrine. He was the most interesting friend because he was always by my side and did what I told him to do, but at the same time, he didn’t always do what I wanted him to do.

NakamuraThe ball is his friend. He’s just like the real Tsubasa!

KazamaSince I became a junior high school student, I haven’t grown taller and I’ve lost out in terms of foot speed. But everyone walks at the same speed, right? So instead of handling the ball in front of me, I learned to put the ball behind me and move forward. That way, I couldn’t lose the ball, and I never forgot that soccer was just for fun.

NakamuraI think that everyone enjoys kicking the ball, and feels frustrated when things don’t go well, and that’s what’s at the root of it all. When competition and winning and losing come into the picture, it’s easy to forget what’s important. I think there are a lot of coaches who say, “Have fun!”, but the players can tell how seriously they’re saying it.

KazamaI was also playing in Germany when I was a player. I thought that if I could pull the ball and pass it even if there were two people marking me, I could make the stadium excited, so I kept doing it even though people around me told me not to do it because I would get hurt. But when the J-League started in 1993, I went to Sanfrecce Hiroshima with the thought that I had to make this team win, so before I knew it, I was only concerned with winning. My whole play changed there, and there was a time when I thought that that was what it meant to be a professional. My family also told me, “You don’t look like you’re having fun at all.”

NakamuraSanfrecce, with Kazama on the team, won the first stage in 1994.

KazamaYes. I did everything I could there, so I wanted to play abroad again, and signed with a German third division team. When I was playing there, the kids said to me, “I’ve never seen a dad having so much fun playing soccer before.” It really shocked me. It made me realize that places that aren’t about winning or losing are definitely stronger.

NakamuraThere were times when I couldn’t enjoy myself either. But I think it was because of those times that I was able to understand what it truly means to have fun.

KazamaThat’s what I did too.